Abu Dhabi Off-Road Club Forums

Dear Members,
you probably have noticed that all trips are kept presently at Newbie and Intermediate level, and you are wondering why.
This is due to the abnormal quantity of accidents, in particular Roll Overs, in the club this year, and increasing in the past weeks.

The Management of the club is assessing the reasons behind this and will propose a way forward to get back to a safe level.

Nevertheless, it has already been identified the following reasons:
- Ignorance from lower grades about the roll overs happening in the club, reports being confined to marshal level for lesson learned purpose. Hence belief it does not happen often and bias against risk appreciation.
- Over-confidence of drivers
- fast upgrades, members not having the time to masterize the skills to be learned from each level,
- race for the stars, members not coming anymore in trips for learning, for enjoying, and for family time, but looking for getting upgrade as fast as possible
- flexibility with regards to rules in trips. There is a reason behing each rules, therefore their necessity.

ROLL OVERS are happening: this it not only due to bad luck or fate, this it not only in the other clubs or during private trips, and for some of us who learned the hard way, this is not only happening to others.

We are a family oriented club which you joined to enjoy the desert in fun and with safety as a priority. It is the duty of each of us to fully embrace this vision and to make it happen.

More communication will follow in due time. Until then, drive safe, have fun and enjoy the desert.

Thanks AD4x4
That's why we like the club

Sent from my E6833 using Tapatalk

Unfortunately I have to say that I am not surprised. I attended trips where you could just wait for something to happen. Personally I think any pop-out is a last warning and any roll-over is completely inacceptable and requires measurable change.

In the course of my progression in the club I noticed that AD4x4 desert trips are more and more evolving towards high speed dune bashing with fast driving on challenging tracks as the ultimate objective. And I acknowledge that some club members are willing to accept a higher risk level like in any other racing sport.

However, that is not really what I am looking for when going out to the desert. And I believe that many other club members feel the same. Why not going out to the desert for more relaxing cruise trips? They may be technically challenging and require experienced drivers. However the scenery, the breaks, some nice landmarks etc. should be more important than pure driving thrill. This would also suit passengers, who stay away from trips to avoid motion sickness time and again.

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I fully acknowledge the necessity of higher speed for sound and safe side sloping and cresting. Also I do understand the fun of “playing” and the thrilling racing ambitions of some members and many marshals. But that is not my cup of tea and probably not what most off-roaders want.

I just would like to encourage some trip leaders to also offer dedicated cruise trips beyond the beginner levels to accommodate members with other priorities. Safety is a consequence of attitude!

Best regards,

Martin

Hi all,

I am really sad to know that we had some rollovers this year, i urge all to drive safely and responsibly.

I would like to suggest to announce each rollover or major accident that happens in trips, the cause, the wrong judgement that was took from the driver, and finally how this accident could be avoided so other members can learn and avoid falling in same mistakes.

I also suggest to keep the name of the driver hidden. The objective to teach others not to harm persons.

My god protect all of AD4x4
Luay


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are huge lessons to be learned from the rollovers, but let's not forget the lessons that we can teach and learn from the many NEAR roll-overs. Sometimes events happen on trips that could have resulted in a rollover, and I believe the marshalls could really drive the point home by stopping the drive, and teaching about what happened and why it was so unsafe, and how it could have caused an accident. Some marshalls seem to do this frequently, others want to keep the convoy moving and don't take the time. I have learned a lot from the marshalls that have discussed near misses, and have even shared their rollover stories and what they learned from it happening.

First of all, I am proud of being AD4x4 member, and I am very sorry for anyone involved in this type of incidents, hope everyone is fine. I would prefer not to see posts like this, but this shows how seriously safety is taken and I understand how much work and discussions happen among our senior members.

With almost two years in the club, it has been obvious to me that trips intensity is not always homogeneous within the same level. This is not an easy task at all but should however be our objective.

It can be not only the track selection but of course also the drivers neglecting some of the very basic rules or directions.

I also totally agree with Martin. The sole fact of going out to the desert is an absolute pleasure to me, regardless of the track difficulty, speed or skills practiced. I noticed that particularly in the last months, where I joined many newbie trips, brought family and had a blast. Also, I am sometimes missing the longer chit-chats where we strengthen links with club members and also learn a lot by discussing.

IMHO there is so much to learn in every level, and nobody should be in a hurry for upgrades, unfortunately it is in human nature, but we should all members make an effort. A rigurous upgrade system protects us all from incidents, car damage and traumatic experiences.

Looking forward to any change that makes our club safer and even better.

Best regards,
Edgar


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It will be a good idea to have dedicated thread about accidents- away from the trip reports- where driver's names can be hidden, should some be sensitive about it.
Personally I believe mistakes should be pointed out, discussed and kept accessible for all drivers to read and learn. If anyone feels sensitive about it he/she can go somewhere else!
I've been in the club for long time where Always admired seniors who pin point my mistakes.

Another point for all to keep in mind and I quote Omar-kid " big part of experience comes from continuity" which is why for me and after times I am away I go for newbi trip to "get unrusty" test the car etc.

Moreover, it should be set clear to all that skill level indicates the amount of responsibility can be assumed in the convoy and not what to show off about!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi All
I think the first post says everything correctly, gives some of the reasons and is starting to chart the way forward.

I have always found 99% of the drives exceptionally safe, well controlled and progressive learning experience that was well guided by the Marshalls that I have driven with.

In my opinion, AD4x4 should maintain and enforce the current rules that are well thought out, have a good structure and are progressive training.
Roll overs can happen to everyone from a Newbie to a Marshall and they have happened to all levels of driver and immaterial of experience of driver.

Drive safe and take care yourself as the driver. Like with flying "aviate, navigate, communicate". As drivers, we are firstly responsible for keeping ourselves and passengers safe - many Marshalls I have driven with state "drive within you own capability and ability".

We must take responsibility as drivers of 4x4 in the desert.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi,

That is great to see that this issue is discussed openly.

I would suggest members to have a one on one "test drive" to be able to upgraded to the next level where they will follow a marshall and followed by another marshall, experiencing the pace and challenges of the next level. This way driver can be observed closely and have a better idea if they are ready to drive at the next level safely and without any trouble. If they fail they can keep driving at the same level and will be eligible to request another test after a certain number of drives.

This is a big club, as a consequence many marshalls see a particular driver only once during the period they spend in a particular level and considering the hardness to observe every single driver in the convoy closely in every different situation, one trip might not be enough to give a proper idea about the skills of the driver.

That is my humble opinion.

Regards

Finally the subject has been opened, it’s about time.

A book can be written about the subject, I will not be writing a book.

If a driver who had an accident does not mind being mentioned by name, he/she can indicate so. We are not here to criticize each other; we want to learn from each other. If I get mentioned by name, I don’t mind as long as it is to learn from an experience and it is constructive criticism.

It would be great if the driver who had an accident could talk and give their own reasons to the cause of accident (if they wish to do so).
Everyone should be able to express their opinion as part of learning.

Safety must be observed always and it should be the priority, but…
Since this is an off road club, the risks are higher than standard street driving and I am sure every member in the club would understand this.
If we want zero risk level, we could just sit at home and watch what other drivers do on the television (that may involve other health risks).

Every sport has accidents, many examples can be mentioned, best of the best champions have accidents, (F1 drivers, divers, trapeze artists, aerobatics, etc.) as long as the risks are minimized and are not life threatening it should be acceptable.
Accidents do happen; and will happen for multiple reasons, some due to overdoing beyond a driver’s capabilities (seeing others do it), and sometimes due to defective or faulty manufactured parts (suspension and wheels etc.) causing an accident. Many accidents can happen just because you can’t see where you are going or could get blinded by direct sunlight, imagine driving at night in the desert with heavy fog with almost zero visibility. You never truly know what lies behind the dune (maybe a dinosaur waiting to bite your vehicle). Common sense should always be used.

Each vehicle is different; the drivers should know and be familiar with the capabilities of their vehicle (and their own abilities) and should avoid experimenting in levels beyond their abilities if the risks of danger are high.
Off road bikes can go unimaginable places; if a driver tries to follow the bike, it is bound to fail, in a car he/she would need to find an alternative route to get to the same spot (mostly).

A driver’s abilities should become second nature and automatic, that takes a lot of practice.
Drivers with technical knowledge but not practical experience can be beaten by a driver who has attained a knack who has little or no theoretical knowledge, ultimately knowledge with a knack should be better.

It is absurd to put a stop to certain drive levels just because there were accidents, when accidents happen on the street the traffic carries on as usual once the accident is cleared, when an airline accident happens on a large aircraft the Airline company does not stop all their flights on similar routes. Causes for accidents should be inspected to gain better knowledge in order to avoid the same in the future, but not stop, life goes-on.

Always follow the Marshals instructions, each Marshal has its own style and experience and going on trips with different Marshals will improve knowledge and skill. If you need to follow other drivers (climb, side slope side cresting etc…) follow only if you know you can do it and not if you think you can do it when risky or dangerous.

Safe driving to all.

Testinwork

I think I will step in and make a couple of comments.

This part of the website is an open forum and therefore it can be seen by newbies and guests. If an accident is reported we must be mindful of the situation regarding say the police, saeed and the insurance companies.

Second, my personal opinion is that unfortunately there is a mix of not following tracks, not listening and acting on radio instructions and speed.

I myself am happy to discuss a particular event or scenario with members for them to learn but it is agreed at management level that specific incidents will not be published on the open forum. Not to prevent learning but for other obvious reasons. But this may be reviewed / revised in due course.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalkbp

I would say just get out of the city & enjoy the nice sand, leave your ego at home, listen to the leader carefully, trust him, follow him & you will be just fine.
At any moment, you feel that you cannot do something, simply stop in a safe position & ask for help.
Still this is a sport & any sport is having some risks (majority are driver induced & rarely are due to bad luck) but we can at least minimise or avoid risks induced by drivers by following the club rules.
"Life is simple....don't complicate it"

"Good is enemy of great"
Saif
Prado SWB V6
0551094084

Testinwork wrote:Finally the subject has been opened, it’s about time.

A book can be written about the subject, I will not be writing a book.

If a driver who had an accident does not mind being mentioned by name, he/she can indicate so. We are not here to criticize each other; we want to learn from each other. If I get mentioned by name, I don’t mind as long as it is to learn from an experience and it is constructive criticism.

It would be great if the driver who had an accident could talk and give their own reasons to the cause of accident (if they wish to do so).
Everyone should be able to express their opinion as part of learning.

Safety must be observed always and it should be the priority, but…
Since this is an off road club, the risks are higher than standard street driving and I am sure every member in the club would understand this.
If we want zero risk level, we could just sit at home and watch what other drivers do on the television (that may involve other health risks).

Every sport has accidents, many examples can be mentioned, best of the best champions have accidents, (F1 drivers, divers, trapeze artists, aerobatics, etc.) as long as the risks are minimized and are not life threatening it should be acceptable.
Accidents do happen; and will happen for multiple reasons, some due to overdoing beyond a driver’s capabilities (seeing others do it), and sometimes due to defective or faulty manufactured parts (suspension and wheels etc.) causing an accident. Many accidents can happen just because you can’t see where you are going or could get blinded by direct sunlight, imagine driving at night in the desert with heavy fog with almost zero visibility. You never truly know what lies behind the dune (maybe a dinosaur waiting to bite your vehicle). Common sense should always be used.

Each vehicle is different; the drivers should know and be familiar with the capabilities of their vehicle (and their own abilities) and should avoid experimenting in levels beyond their abilities if the risks of danger are high.
Off road bikes can go unimaginable places; if a driver tries to follow the bike, it is bound to fail, in a car he/she would need to find an alternative route to get to the same spot (mostly).

A driver’s abilities should become second nature and automatic, that takes a lot of practice.
Drivers with technical knowledge but not practical experience can be beaten by a driver who has attained a knack who has little or no theoretical knowledge, ultimately knowledge with a knack should be better.

It is absurd to put a stop to certain drive levels just because there were accidents, when accidents happen on the street the traffic carries on as usual once the accident is cleared, when an airline accident happens on a large aircraft the Airline company does not stop all their flights on similar routes. Causes for accidents should be inspected to gain better knowledge in order to avoid the same in the future, but not stop, life goes-on.

Always follow the Marshals instructions, each Marshal has its own style and experience and going on trips with different Marshals will improve knowledge and skill. If you need to follow other drivers (climb, side slope side cresting etc…) follow only if you know you can do it and not if you think you can do it when risky or dangerous.

Safe driving to all.

Testinwork

I like what you say.
It is the member how can decided what he can/ can't do.


Proud to be AD4X4 club member.
Khaled Awadallah.
0558992870.

Testinwork wrote:Finally the subject has been opened, it’s about time.

A book can be written about the subject, I will not be writing a book.

If a driver who had an accident does not mind being mentioned by name, he/she can indicate so. We are not here to criticize each other; we want to learn from each other. If I get mentioned by name, I don’t mind as long as it is to learn from an experience and it is constructive criticism.

It would be great if the driver who had an accident could talk and give their own reasons to the cause of accident (if they wish to do so).
Everyone should be able to express their opinion as part of learning.

Safety must be observed always and it should be the priority, but…
Since this is an off road club, the risks are higher than standard street driving and I am sure every member in the club would understand this.
If we want zero risk level, we could just sit at home and watch what other drivers do on the television (that may involve other health risks).

Every sport has accidents, many examples can be mentioned, best of the best champions have accidents, (F1 drivers, divers, trapeze artists, aerobatics, etc.) as long as the risks are minimized and are not life threatening it should be acceptable.
Accidents do happen; and will happen for multiple reasons, some due to overdoing beyond a driver’s capabilities (seeing others do it), and sometimes due to defective or faulty manufactured parts (suspension and wheels etc.) causing an accident. Many accidents can happen just because you can’t see where you are going or could get blinded by direct sunlight, imagine driving at night in the desert with heavy fog with almost zero visibility. You never truly know what lies behind the dune (maybe a dinosaur waiting to bite your vehicle). Common sense should always be used.

Each vehicle is different; the drivers should know and be familiar with the capabilities of their vehicle (and their own abilities) and should avoid experimenting in levels beyond their abilities if the risks of danger are high.
Off road bikes can go unimaginable places; if a driver tries to follow the bike, it is bound to fail, in a car he/she would need to find an alternative route to get to the same spot (mostly).

A driver’s abilities should become second nature and automatic, that takes a lot of practice.
Drivers with technical knowledge but not practical experience can be beaten by a driver who has attained a knack who has little or no theoretical knowledge, ultimately knowledge with a knack should be better.

It is absurd to put a stop to certain drive levels just because there were accidents, when accidents happen on the street the traffic carries on as usual once the accident is cleared, when an airline accident happens on a large aircraft the Airline company does not stop all their flights on similar routes. Causes for accidents should be inspected to gain better knowledge in order to avoid the same in the future, but not stop, life goes-on.

Always follow the Marshals instructions, each Marshal has its own style and experience and going on trips with different Marshals will improve knowledge and skill. If you need to follow other drivers (climb, side slope side cresting etc…) follow only if you know you can do it and not if you think you can do it when risky or dangerous.

Safe driving to all.

Testinwork

I cant agree less....

Agree with the lack of knowledge and overconfidence as a newbie we make mistake. This information is really helping. Me and one of my friend are now taking the advice seriously and willing to go step by step.
BTW it been a nice time with club. I really love and enjoy the last event.