SSS's V8 swap project ... THE THUNDER is alive

[SSS]

OK guys ... as a "good" ad4x4 fellow jeeper I want to share my latest "daydreams"(?) and research findings with you:

Since I purchased the TJ (actually the first one in 2009) and since the first moment in this club I am "consuming" information of how to add significant power to this amazing desert toy.

The victim:
2006 TJ (with newer high pressure fuel rail/gas tank, newer PCM comm protocol (CAN not ccd and not pci)) and newer dash gauge cluster and AUTO!

The sorted out and discarded routes (for MY(!) V8wannabe TJ):

- forced induction with either banks turbo kit or new RIPP Gen2 supercharger with cool intercooler:
pros: Muroor legal, the RIPP thing can be done in 1-2 days even by myself!
cons: same shitty tranny, HOT underhood temps, and loads of stress on stock 4.0 engine AND STOCK 42RLE ... calling for a early and sudden TJ death.

- bad *** stroker:
pros: Muroor legal , relatively cheap
cons: STILL same shitty tranny ! error prone and overheat candidate if done improperly ... still high risk of failure

- poor man's stroker: (the "modified" Version)
pros: Muroor legal, best bang for the buck, relatively mild to the tranny, relatively low risk in execution and on tranny(?!)
cons: opening up and tampering with a perfectly good engine, still significant overload/overheat risk for the shitty 42RLE auto, low horsepower gain considering the effort and no real risk elimination (for the tranny, which already struggles in the desert)

- GM vortec truck 5.3/4L60E swap :
pros: Muroor legal (bolt on mounts!), signifcant power and still robust, new 4spd tranny ON PAR with power and torque! used drivetrains available here for reasonable prices. No tampering inside the engine ... swap is purely mechanical/electrical work, which can be done here with low risk. LIGHT engines ... alu blocks are even lighter than the stock 4.0!
cons: MAJOR wiring pains ... the stock dash cluster will only run if stock PCM and GM pcm are run in parallel. Engines still not cheap ... lots of other stuff needed.

- Mopar Magnum 5.9/46RE (out of Durango/Ram):
pros: can be made Muroor legal with some creativity, super cheap, super easy for older TJs!, tranny ON PAR with the V8 power.
cons: significant MPG loss, DOES NEED LOTS of downgrading of newer TJ (05-06) (new older cluster, new older evap canisters) ... major electrical and fuel rail mods needed on newer TJs, power not exceeding poor man's stroker gains ... only torque monster with cool sound ... not worth the effort on the second glance.

My actually preferred solution, which CAN be made Muroor legal (if the shop can convert/rebuild the weld on mounts to be bolt on):
The Mopar 5.7 non MDS truck HEMI out of 04/05 durangos and Rams

So have found those guys for a low hassle V8 swap fun:
jeepspeedshop.com
http://www.jeepspeedshop.com/index.php? ... Itemid=158
cool: non skim pcm(!!), p&p harness(!!) , mounts, rad, hoses, ac lines, mech fan/clutch all included

though it is not as cheap as a magnum swap ... it should be doable close to a highend stroker cost wise ... if I find a good and cheap donor (04/05) durango/ram truck drivetrain.
Jeepspeedshop offers turnkey solutions (drop 4.0 TJ off, pick V8 Hemi TJ up) for around USD $12k ... in the US ... should be cheaper here.

Now looking locally for a cheap durango non MDS Hemi drivetrain here ... ... to morph my V8wannabe to a V8ordie

pros: significant power, Tranny (545RFE) ON PAR, new pcm talks/gauges listen and work , not as expensive as expected
cons: hmmm dunno yet. maybe a price around 25k-30k in total?

[Ahmedhammad]

Good luck, Buddy.

[MarwanJeeper]

u going in dark tunnel ,no way back to the Jeep World

[ossme]

Soo, Let us "day dream" togather!

It will be much easier and cheaper to find a hemi engine from C300 or Dodge Charger than RAM Truck engines. If those would fit then I would say that they should be the way to go.

The last time I checked. Hemi's were around AED7500 in Sharjah and AED15000 in Abu Dhabi.

non of the v8 swaps are legal in Muroor because you are adding more cylinders and more power. BUT, as I started to find out, there are many shops that can actually legalize anything for you in Muroor.

I think that wiring will still need some Major work even with the Hemi swap. But once done, everything will work as it came directly from Jeep's Factory. Which is a very very sweet thing!

Personally, I started to lean back to the goold ol' stroker solution. My major concern was Fuel Consumption. But after webwheeling about the subject, people are reporting same or better than the stock fuel Consumption. Also, People are reporting greater results with smaller gears ratio (like mine).

Having said that, I want to take my time to study all possibilites and come up with the best approach.

Good luck, and I will be always there to support !!

[SSS]

Thanks !

BTW : with a NV3550 gear box I would have gone stroker ... fo sure ! but with my auto (and I will stay auto) I need something with tranny upgrade

Hemi truck engines and 545RFE trannies come in Durangos as well ... unatractive and ugly family SUVs with low resale value

Regarding truck to car Hemi :
the engine is of the same design. just a timing cover differance. the truck does not use a egr system. the car does. the car head is "finished machined for that egr pump. the truck only half way machined..so a truck head is the same casting number thats removed from the machining process before the hole is finish drilled for that egr pump.
And all car Hemis have that stupid MDS (shutoff 4 cylinder) system ... I do not want that!

[DinoStroker]

As far as I know, swapping an engine with more than 6 cylinders into a TJ or XJ is illegal but like everything else, you can get past that with wasta.
If you're afraid of opening up your existing newish 4.0 engine to build a 4.6 stroker, you could buy a junkyard 4.0 engine instead and build that one up slowly. Then when the stroker's ready, you swap it in, run it for a few thousand km to make sure it's reliable, and sell your old 4.0 engine on. That's exactly how I did it and I was even happier when Chuck bought my old 4.0 and built that one into a 4.6 stroker as well. I know that the HP gain isn't huge but a stroker will have plenty of grunt from low rpm so you won't need to work it hard to enjoy it.
The stock tranny (auto or manual) will easily cope with the torque of a mild NA stroker but it's absolutely essential that you add an external tranny cooler (either in series with the existing cooler inside the radiator, or completely independent). Get the biggest one that'll fit and add a small electric fan in front of it. It's easier to do in the TJ than the XJ 'cause there's more space.
If you're spending a lot of time in the desert, I also recommend adding an engine oil cooler. They're easy to find (Summit Racing) and fairly cheap. Once you've past the 5000km mark in your new stroker, you can use an SL-rated synthetic engine oil for additional protection since synthetics are less likely to break down at higher temperatures.
Since it's likely that you'll be adding engine and tranny oil coolers, it's a good time to add the appropriate gauges so you can monitor those temps. inside the cabin.

[SSS]

As far as I know, swapping an engine with more than 6 cylinders into a TJ or XJ is illegal but like everything else, you can get past that with wasta.
If you're afraid of opening up your existing newish 4.0 engine to build a 4.6 stroker, you could buy a junkyard 4.0 engine instead and build that one up slowly. Then when the stroker's ready, you swap it in, run it for a few thousand km to make sure it's reliable, and sell your old 4.0 engine on. That's exactly how I did it and I was even happier when Chuck bought my old 4.0 and built that one into a 4.6 stroker as well. I know that the HP gain isn't huge but a stroker will have plenty of grunt from low rpm so you won't need to work it hard to enjoy it.
The stock tranny (auto or manual) will easily cope with the torque of a mild NA stroker but it's absolutely essential that you add an external tranny cooler (either in series with the existing cooler inside the radiator, or completely independent). Get the biggest one that'll fit and add a small electric fan in front of it. It's easier to do in the TJ than the XJ 'cause there's more space.
If you're spending a lot of time in the desert, I also recommend adding an engine oil cooler. They're easy to find (Summit Racing) and fairly cheap. Once you've past the 5000km mark in your new stroker, you can use an SL-rated synthetic engine oil for additional protection since synthetics are less likely to break down at higher temperatures.
Since it's likely that you'll be adding engine and tranny oil coolers, it's a good time to add the appropriate gauges so you can monitor those temps. inside the cabin.

Thanks Dino!

I already have the aux tranny cooler in series with the rad and a temp gauge in the hot line ... thats why I got skeptical.
In 4hi driving in second gear in the desert does heat up the tranny to around 220*F while playing a bit ... in 4lo the tranny stays at 165*F despite doing crazy stuff in D.
Now my NEW derale 13960 monster cooler with 8" efan is waiting to replace the insufficient aux cooler in front of the rad.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DER-13960/
rated at 30.000 GVW ... should be enough to keep the tranny cool
Step one will be installing the new monster cooler ... watching its behavior and the tranny temps in the desert driving in 4hi again... and then deciding if option "keep tranny" with mo power is viable again.
And then there is the junkyard tour to do ... lets see what I can find: Hemi V8 and tranny?, newer I6 4.0 2005 block and head?
as you can see ... hehehe ... there is still a plan B ... and I still have my stroker crank shaft ... so I am not completely out of the stroker game ...

[Mpenzi]

Now that I have Franki then we wil bel comparing the perfomance and updating

[SSS]

UPDATE:

0) chromoly front and rear axle shafts : DONE
1) consultation of 7performance/Hisham : DONE ... with the result : Chevy engines are the way to go! HEMI is a bit finicky in the desert and easier to run hot and more expensive ... LSx series engines and preferably the aluminium blocks do run all day long cool and strong.
Wiring and dash cluster are no problem ...
(anyway ... Jeepspeedshop did NOT respond regarding their HEMI kits till today )

2) today I got MY LOW MILEAGE (75000 km) LS1 with 220kw and 4L60E wrapped in a super clean and running old daddy 2001 Chevy(Holden) Caprice(statesman) ... of course with all engine components and pcm / harness / sensors etc etc ... its a full and nice running 2ton ship
(actually too nice to be stripped) FOR CHEAP !! (lets just say cheaper than a Golen block would cost in the US! )

3) TODO:
- resell brand new stroker 4cw crankshaft with long snout to a stroker/manual guy
- source bolt on mounts (Novak has promised me s.th. ... or Hishams mounts?)
- source 4L60E transmission to NP232J transfercase adapter (Novak or AA)
- source AC relocation bracket / eventually with new compressor (sanden?)
- source new serpentine belt for relocated AC
- source auto shifter / TC shifter
- source block hugger headers (old C5 junkyard headers or real ones)
- source custom exhaust WITH high flow cats (NOT noisy! and not provocating muroor)
- source new aluminium rad with fan shroud and fan
- eventually source new drive shafts
- pcm programming : remove VATS/security, remove rear O2 sensor reading, fine tune for 91 AKI/95 RON octane (local "special"), intake, headers, exhaust
- assembly at 7p

so still some time and costs ... but I can phase it out and order slowly and when everything is here Hisham will put it together one day

(then : resell Caprice body, chassis, axles, wheel assemblies and GOOD complete interior (dash cluster, seats, steering wheel, buttons, shifter, air bags. ... and resell low mileage very good running 4.0 I6L with 42RLE 4spd auto tranny for 2005/2006 TJs)

[ossme]

I'm Finally pulling the trigger on a V8 swap !! EAT THAT OSSME !!

Wooaaah ! Congratulating !

Let us see how this will pass muroor and I will soon fallow !!

But I do think that 4.88 is way too much with a v8 !!

[MalteJK]

Congrats ... now you know why i went also with a alu engine

But beware : ls1 is not alu - but some ls2 and the L92 or ls3 is ... ( i get a L92 with L76 header .. )
Anyway i'm currently searching to find a nice fitting radiator ...

Do you plan on let 7p help you in the fitting or ?

[SSS]

I'm Finally pulling the trigger on a V8 swap !! EAT THAT OSSME !!

Wooaaah ! Congratulating !

Let us see how this will pass muroor and I will soon fallow !!

But I do think that 4.88 is way too much with a v8 !!

nice summary ...

yeah : muroor will become interesting ... next year (because I will do this year's test in October, then swap )

you are right, 4.88 is quite a lot BUT:
1. the final overdrive ratio with the 4l60E is 0.70 ... the 42RLE is 0.69 ... so basically the same rpm will be running at highway speeds
(around 2700 @ 120km/h with 4.88 and 33" tires)
2. the LS1 is NOT a early torque monster like e.g. the LS2 and truck vortecs ... it has more torque than the stock I6L and earlier ... but its not a flat diesel curve
3. well ... yeah i have to learn how to deal with the throttle again.
4. My engine is detuned by Holden to 220kw which is about 300 HP ... a HIGH end stroker reaches that as well with even more low end torque ... and they run with D44 axles, chromoly shafts and 4.56/4.88 all day long. I am not after more power ...
5. we will see

[SSS]

Congrats ... now you know why i went also with a alu engine

But beware : ls1 is not alu - but some ls2 and the L92 or ls3 is ... ( i get a L92 with L76 header .. )
Anyway i'm currently searching to find a nice fitting radiator ...

Do you plan on let 7p help you in the fitting or ?

LS1 is FULL alu!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_LS_engine#5.7_L
and about 50 kgs(or more) LIGHTER than the stock 4.0 I6L.
the LM7 engine (5.3 vortec truck engine) has a cast iron block ... yes ... but not the 5.7 LS1

of course 7p : I am talking with Hisham even in his vacations in Jordan

How is your swap progressing? I would really like to see their bolt on engine mount work before pulling the trigger with Novak's alternative.

[zeer]

good luck my friend even though i feel sorry for the Caprice its super clean for such model

[ossme]

3. well ... yeah i have to learn how to deal with the throttle again.

Not only you, you have to think about your pooor MOI driving that thing!

just to give you a tast of what your getting yourself into. Here is a video of a wrangler with LS1, 33 tires but without 4.88 gears !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N48bpnEV3sM